Learn how to manage workplace burnout and how to set boundaries and practice self-compassion. You'll also learn how to implement organizational solutions that help create healthier work environments for you and your teams.
Servant Leadership Certificate program ecornell.short.gy/Eyh8A5
Communication Planning for Change course ecornell.short.gy/Eh9m8A
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If you feel emotional or physical exhaustion, catch yourself disengaging from your job or coworkers, or notice a decrease in your productivity or creativity, you are not alone. A recent survey found 48% of employees in eight countries struggle with burnout. Or you may be experiencing boreout — underchallenged and lacking purpose, saddled with repetitive tasks.
Join Amy Newman from Cornell’s SC Johnson College of Business and Chris Wofford from eCornell to learn strategies for managing burnout by pinpointing what you can and can’t control. We’ll describe ways to re-engage in the work and with your coworkers, approach your situation with compassion, and communicate with courage.
For people managers, we’ll explore ways to improve working conditions, lead with humility, and communicate more in some ways and less in others to support your team, despite work demands.
What You'll Learn
Intro: Welcome to Cornell Keynotes. Today we're joined by communication expert and senior lecturer emerita Amy Newman from Cornell's SC Johnson College of Business. Amy shares practical strategies to help you regain control, re-engage with your work, and communicate effectively, whether you're an individual contributor or managing a team.
Much of what Amy covers here maps directly to her online courses in servant leadership and corporate communication. Check the episode notes for more details. And now, here's our interview with Cornell's Amy Newman
Chris Wofford: Let's get into it, Amy. So ... How should we define burnout?
Amy Newman: Yeah. Think of burnout as a response to chronic unmanaged stress.
Chris Wofford: Okay.
Amy Newman: And really we can think about it as a mismatch between the external demands of a job and our own internal capacity or our [00:01:00] tolerance, and that might come from our expectations, our personalities, and als- also our values that might not connect with the external work.
Chris Wofford: So how does burnout manifest itself, within people? , How does it show up? What does it look like? It's different for everybody.
Amy Newman: It is different for everyone, but there are essentially three ways it can manifest. Uh-huh. One is emotional exhaustion, or it could be physical fatigue.
The other is cynicism or alienation at work, and the third might be a decrease in productivity. So you might experience some more errors. You might feel like you can't really concentrate as well as you could in the past, or maybe you're not as creative as you were in the past. All of those things could happen.
Chris Wofford: Is burnout just caused , from being overworked, , the work itself is taxing, maybe there are unreasonable demands, workplace conditions. Is that kind of where that comes [00:02:00] from or what do you think?
Amy Newman: Yeah, it definitely does. Yeah. And , I wanna talk about the personal side in a minute.
Uh-huh. But, , I also wanna say that, we think about burnout as overstimulation- Uh-huh ... and it could be that the work itself is cognitively demanding or- Mm-hmm ... physically stressful, that kind of thing- Mm-hmm ... certainly. , But also there's this phenomenon called boreout- Mm-hmm ... which is kind of the opposite.
It's that you have a lot of monotonous tasks, you're doing a lot of repetitive work- ... and you feel like you don't really have a purpose at work. So , that's a concern as well.
Chris Wofford: So it could go both ways, right? It could be, like, volume and intensity, or lack of volume and lack of intensity, right?
Amy Newman: Yeah.
Chris Wofford: It's under-stimulating. But , in the end, it manifests itself as- That's , what we think of conventionally as burnout looking like.
Amy Newman: Yes.
Chris Wofford: Are there personality types, are there personal factors or personality types who may be more susceptible to burnout than others? I think I know the answer, but I wanna know why.
Amy Newman: Yeah. Yeah. There definitely [00:03:00] are. Yeah. , I said it was , this mismatch, and this might not be a surprise, but, , the research tells us that what we think of as more type A personalities are more susceptible to burnout, people who are more conscientious, more driven, more ambitious, definitely.
We see, , those types. And it also does have to do with our expectations. And people who experience more anxiety might experience the work as more stressful than people who don't tend to be as anxious. , So they're at greater risk , for burnout. , But the other piece I wanna talk about, this idea of the work and personal lives is, we're not severed
Chris Wofford: We were talking about this , in the hallway before. Yeah. So there's a show on Apple TV, I think it's called- Yeah ... Severance. Correct me if I'm wrong, but, , employees of a company or people in the world can choose to sever their work personalities from their personal lives, and never the twain shall meet, right?
You go into work, you check in, [00:04:00] and you're only in work mode, not able to recall your personal life and the other way around,
Amy Newman: yeah. It's awesome, right? Sounds enticing. It sounds great.
Chris Wofford: Sounds cool, but-
Amy Newman: Yeah, but
Chris Wofford: unfortunately- ...
Amy Newman: there are some drawbacks ... there are s- there are some drawbacks. As
Chris Wofford: we learned-
Amy Newman: Right
Chris Wofford: pretty quickly.
Amy Newman: Yeah. Yeah. Um, including the fact that we can't do that ourselves.
Chris Wofford: But your point is...
Amy Newman: . we do bring our work home. Yes. And of course, we bring our personal lives to work. So if we're experiencing relationship problems at home or an illness or financial problems or world problems, world events today-
that can certainly affect our experience of burnout and make us less tolerant of stress at work.
Chris Wofford: The conventional wisdom or the conventional way of thinking around burnout historically- has been that there are ways to manage it, and some of it's good advice, some of it's bad advice. But how have people historically thought about managing burnout or how to prevent it?
Amy Newman: Yeah. Well, I think the most obvious solution is to just quit your job, which, you know-
Chris Wofford: You [00:05:00] can't do that ...
Amy Newman: great. I mean, more power- Yeah ... to you if you can. Not everybody can. I don't suggest rage quitting, for example. Especially if you don't have a new job lined up. That could be really tough today.
, It could also be that on balance it's a good job even though there are parts of it that you find stressful. , So , that's not , a great one for everyone. , Take a vacation, , do a spa, go on a retreat. Great ideas too. Short-term solutions to fix the symptoms, not necessarily long-term.
, And the other one you hear a lot is, , get therapy, which , is great. I think that could be quite useful too, but might not be enough. So we'll talk about some other solutions.
Chris Wofford: Okay, good. So we're getting into the, heart of the conversation. Yeah. We're getting liftoff here.
Amy Newman: Yeah, we are.
Chris Wofford: What we're gonna be covering now are the five strategies, as promised- Mm-hmm ... for managing burnout, , both for individuals and organizations. So what's the first strategy? Where do we start?
Amy Newman: I suggest to drop the [00:06:00] shoulds and the comparisons. Uh-huh. When people feel shame about feeling burnout, , people might say, , "I should be able to cope with this," or they're looking at other people, at their coworkers- Mm-hmm
and they say, "Their coworkers are coping just fine. Why can't I cope well?" , It's just not really helpful. It might be true. , Certainly you and I could do the same job, and there are gonna be parts of it that are gonna be a breeze for me and difficult for you, and the other way around. So it's just not really helpful, and my concern as a person in recovery, which is why I wrote the book- Yeah
is that it leads to isolation. That kind of thinking and feelings about ourselves also lead to addictive behaviors and addictive substances. So instead, we try to practice compassion, self-compassion- Mm ... to feel like I'm who I am, and sometimes I feel burned out, sometimes I feel stressed, and so does everybody.[00:07:00]
Chris Wofford: Can you tell me about the shame part of it? , Is this, like, expectations related to capitalism, right? That's sort of baked into the cake. This is how we work, working hard. Is that what it is?
Amy Newman: Well, I think- I'm
Chris Wofford: coming off as maybe an undisciplined worker.
Amy Newman: Yeah. Yeah. That could certainly be part of it.
Right. And other people might be judging you too, ... that could happen. So I think we have to watch , the shoulds and the, those judgments of other people. Mm-hmm. But it also could help us be more compassionate to others, in cases where I'm doing fine, but someone else is really struggling.
Chris Wofford: . We talked about this in the run up to, in our pre-game huddle about, and this is a through line, , in this conversation, which is always being cognizant that we don't always experience burnout in the same way.
Amy Newman: Correct.
Chris Wofford: , In fact, none of us do, right?
Amy Newman: Correct.
Chris Wofford: Okay. What's the second strategy?
Now where are we?
Amy Newman: Second one is to pinpoint the actual stressors. Okay. So try to get analytical about what is really going on. We have a tendency maybe to say, "I hate my job," these [00:08:00] global blanket statements, but trying to, figure out what is actually going on with both the work and with ourselves can help us figure out what we can and cannot control.
So first, to look at the work, I really like the approach of Burnett and Evans. They wrote a book and they have a workbook. Mm-hmm. It's called Designing Your Life. Okay. And I think it's for early career people probably, but I think it could be useful for anyone, and they suggest that you look at your work throughout the day and see, when am I feeling in flow?
When is everything sort of clicking and time passes, when I'm not even thinking about it?
Chris Wofford: Yeah.
Amy Newman: What energizes me also, and then what depletes my energy? To try to pinpoint, what's really going on. And then to also look at ourselves, we said, I mean, no, no blame, no shame, but still- Mm-hmm
I'm who I am. So I'll give a personal example. I'm a [00:09:00] novelty seeker.
Chris Wofford: Yeah.
Amy Newman: I want every day in my job to be all new.
Chris Wofford: Okay.
Amy Newman: Yeah. And, uh, you know, that's ...
Chris Wofford: I get it ...
Amy Newman: it's not always practical, Yeah. . And so I'm probably more prone to boreout , than burnout than some others. Um- Mm-hmm ... and that's on me.
, And that's how I'm built. I'm not gonna change that, and yet I could look at that and see, can I adjust that so I can get on and do my job? , So this idea of, , breaking that all down and then saying, "Well, what can I control and what can't I control?" So I might be able to control, the work that I delegate to AI, for example.
Maybe that's something I can do.
Chris Wofford: Yeah.
Amy Newman: Maybe I can say no more, we'll talk about that a little bit- Mm-hmm ... later and, set some more boundaries. And then for the things that I can't control, like let's take an example that I know a lot of people struggle with recognition. They don't feel that they have enough recognition at work, and [00:10:00] that does lead to feelings of stress and burnout, 'cause you don't know that you're doing a good job.
Mm-hmm. And it's frustrating. What do I do with that? Mm-hmm. I can't make someone appreciate me. So I use that as an example to say I've gotta figure out a way to let that go. There are terrible organizations and terrible jobs and, jerk managers and all the rest, and things that we just really have to accept as they are.
And I say that , not to minimize those situations that people are dealing with. They're very difficult situations. Mm-hmm. But for myself, like to continue railing against something that I can't change is really just causing my own problems. So in my life, I've found it very freeing, and I know a lot of people in recovery and people a little farther along, maybe people who have had some therapy, learn that we just have to accept reality and not get too [00:11:00] hung up on it.
Chris Wofford: It's made me think of the imposter syndrome- Mm-hmm ... type thing, right? Where Nobody's demonstrating that I hold any particular value to the organization. I'm going unrecognized, so gosh, maybe I'm not all that.
Amy Newman: Yeah.
Chris Wofford: Maybe I don't have all the things... and, obviously you can spiral into self-doubt and un- unproductivity and things along those lines,
Amy Newman: but...
Yeah. But that's self-talk, right?
Chris Wofford: Yes.
Amy Newman: And that's something that we really do have control over.
Chris Wofford: Yes.
Let's jump into the third strategy.
So what's number three here?
Amy Newman: Okay. Yeah Um, my discipline is business communication- Yeah ... so of course I'm gonna focus on courage, and that's communicating with courage, that you might need to advocate for yourself and- What does
Chris Wofford: communicating courage courageously look like?
What is that?
Amy Newman: Yeah. It's taking cou- Think of action, cour- courage as taking action despite risks. It's not recklessness, so we have to take a careful look at what those risks are and managing through them. But it might mean, negotiating deadlines, or [00:12:00] uncertainty is a big factor in workplace stress, so it might mean- Mm-hmm
asking for clarification about deadlines and expectations and quality of work.
There's much more in the eCornell, servant leader course on courage about this too that might be helpful.
Chris Wofford: Oh, terrific. And uncertainty is definitely a thing that's in the air, right? It
Amy Newman: is.
Chris Wofford: I think, with businesses struggling, shifting economy, a million external factors, uncertainty can be really disruptive.
Amy Newman: Yeah. And I would also, in terms of communicating with courage, test your own assumptions. Yeah. Because we might, especially if we are more a Type A personality, have expectations for ourselves that are not necessarily required in the job. Mm-hmm. So maybe a frank conversation with a manager about, "When is this really due?"
Mm-hmm. "And what level of work is really required here?"
Chris Wofford: Yeah.
Amy Newman: It also takes courage to, to ask for help, and- Yeah ... I don't think people do that enough. We tend to underestimate sometimes how much [00:13:00] other people want to help us. Mm-hmm. People want to demonstrate their own competency, so that's a great reason to ask someone else for help in addition to- Yeah
getting the help that you need.
Chris Wofford: Yeah.
Amy Newman: And it also makes it possible for other people to ask for help.
Chris Wofford: What I, really wanted to take us home with was the idea of not being in control. Control what you can, but also resign yourself to the fact that there are so many things at work that you can't control, recognition among them.
Sometimes the workload itself or, or- Mm-hmm ... the stress manifesting itself in some way.
Amy Newman: That's right.
Chris Wofford: Asking for help, having humility, and thinking about things in that way is, f- firmly falls into the purview of things that you can control-
Amy Newman: Yeah ...
Chris Wofford: which is super productive.
Amy Newman: Good. All right. I'm glad.
Chris Wofford: Yeah.
So number four.
Amy Newman: Good. Number four. What's
Chris Wofford: strategy number four?
Amy Newman: Okay. Try gratitude and mindfulness practices, and I'm afraid that people are gonna be rolling their eyes out there.
Chris Wofford: At gratitude and mindfulness?
Amy Newman: Yeah, particularly, you know, yeah, both. Why? But particularly the gratitude [00:14:00] thing.
Okay. And I would have years ago also until I started looking at the research. and saw so much strong research about how gratitude improves wellbeing and helps us manage our stress. Can you
Chris Wofford: tell me about the research? I wanted to ask you earlier on, a lot of people don't move in this world, right?
Amy Newman: Yeah.
Chris Wofford: Doing research on things like gratitude and mindfulness as it relates to the workplace. Can you talk a little bit about the research?
Amy Newman: Yeah.
Chris Wofford: Whether it's for this book or some of your previous books or courses.
Amy Newman: Yeah, sure. And I'm not a primary researcher- Okay ... so I'm looking at other people's research- Sure
and making sense of it for audiences. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And one example for us here is, a meta study which looked at many, many studies about, mindfulness training for nurses. Now, nurses have stressful jobs.
Chris Wofford: The highest level.
Amy Newman: I think so. Yep Or close, one of them. Yeah, certainly. So they looked at different kinds of training programs, and they found that nurses who have a mindfulness practice daily or [00:15:00] near daily tend to have lower levels of emotional exhaustion.
So that kind of research is really helpful to us. It tells us what's possible for us, too. That's that piece. You were talking
Chris Wofford: about the research into-
Amy Newman: And then
Chris Wofford: the- ... gratitude and mindfulness.
Amy Newman: Right. Yeah. So gratitude, and I, I wanna be clear, too. I don't mean it like, "Oh, you should be grateful to have this job,"
it's not-
Chris Wofford: That's not what you mean?
Amy Newman: That's not what I mean. Okay. Also, I don't mean this idea of what's called surface acting, which is acting like everything is okay- Yeah ... because that does lead to emotional exhaustion, as you can imagine. , So toxic positivity, right?
Chris Wofford: Toxic positivity is a term that's out there in the world, and-
Amy Newman: Yeah
Chris Wofford: we both get it, right?
Amy Newman: We both do
Chris Wofford: get that. We've been around toxically positive people. I've been guilty of it at time. I'm not gonna go through an anecdote, but, uh, I had a bad one-
Amy Newman: Yeah ...
Chris Wofford: where I was toxically positive.
Amy Newman: Yeah. Okay, so-
Chris Wofford: So surface action ...
Amy Newman: so not that.
Chris Wofford: Not that.
Amy Newman: Instead, what we're talking about in terms of a [00:16:00] gratitude practice is people journal.
Certainly, there's a lot of research about that, but just stating what you're grateful for. So I recommend a practice. Gather two or three friends- Mm-hmm ... and text each other every day three things that you're grateful for, and they can be work-related or not. Mm-hmm. As you're thinking about those things, just spend a little bit of time reflecting on each and see how you feel after a month.
Chris Wofford: What did you find?
Amy Newman: I find that I feel better. Definitely feel better. I'm not fixing my job situation, but it's lifting me up just a little bit. I have a, a friend who said, "When I'm really, really depressed, I do some gratitudes. It's like holding a helium balloon. It lifts me up just a little bit."
Chris Wofford: Yeah.
Amy Newman: So it's the kinda thing that doesn't cost much, it doesn't take much time. If nothing else, you'll feel connected to these couple of people every day. [00:17:00]
Chris Wofford: Right. And you're being reflective throughout.
Amy Newman: Correct.
Chris Wofford: Always good to- Yeah ... reexamine. So those are the five s- strategy pillars that we just covered there.
Let's talk about strategies for ma- Oh, I'm sorry, did we hit number five? We have
Amy Newman: one more.
Chris Wofford: Oh, please. I'm sorry.
Amy Newman: Okay. Go ahead. This one is about re-engaging- Yeah ... with people, and it's particularly for people who feel sort of alienated or withdrawn. We know that loneliness is an increasing problem at work.
It doesn't matter apparently whether people are working at home or in an office, people feel increasingly lonely.
Chris Wofford: Sure.
Amy Newman: A couple of newer studies are looking at belonging and burnout. People who, don't feel that they belong in work are more likely to experience burnout, which kinda makes sense when you think about it.
Of course, yeah. Yeah. So my suggestion is to reach out to people. Certainly there are things the organization can do to make you feel like you belong, but more and more I'm thinking about belonging as a skill, that you are of [00:18:00] service to others, you're helpful to others. Mm-hmm. People come to rely on you, come to depend on you, and then you belong.
You are included as part of the team. I wanna say something also about connecting with people to, gossip and complain and- I did some of this when I was younger in my early career. think a lot of us are guilty a- about it. Mm-hmm. Feel guilty of it.
Chris Wofford: Yeah.
Amy Newman: It's kind of a quick fix, you know?
It's fun. Mm-hmm. Complain about people, you laugh, make fun of people, but it tends to keep us into negative spaces. Yeah ... As I've gotten older, tend to gravitate to more positive people.
Chris Wofford: Yeah. Can't do nothing but good there.
Amy Newman: I think.
Chris Wofford: Okay, good. Belonging, it was interesting, too, when we were talking in the hallway, again, before this, longing to be.
It's such a, like a... It, it's proactivity.
Amy Newman: Yeah.
Chris Wofford: Which is interesting, because belonging to some people feels like a positive thing. Let's make sure that that person feels like they belong.
Amy Newman: Right.
Chris Wofford: But it's a [00:19:00] two-way street.
Amy Newman: It is. There are things that we can do ourselves to help us feel as if we belong.
Chris Wofford: Yeah.
Amy Newman: Yeah.
Chris Wofford: Five pillars. Thank you for that. So let's get into strategies for managers and employers,
Amy Newman: yeah.
Chris Wofford: I wanna understand this. To what degree should a manager feel responsible, for the stress level or burnout within either individuals who are their direct reports , or teams?
Is that a manager's job?
Amy Newman: Yeah, it's a good question. I would say much of it is a manager's job. Uh-huh. Again, you said two-way street. We're not always responsible for everyone's mental health. People have to manage their own stress to an extent, but we can certainly set up conditions that are more favorable to people- Mm-hmm
and to notice when people are struggling so we can be helpful to them.
Chris Wofford: So what would be the ways in which they can improve working conditions? What are some of the first action steps toward that?
Amy Newman: Yeah. Well, when I think about the actual work, my concern is that we're too focused on individual roles and job [00:20:00] responsibilities, job descriptions- Yeah
instead of looking at the work more holistically for- Mm-hmm ... an entire team and thinking, "How can I best manage this workload?" including AI as part of that team. Now, the caveat about AI is if we're delegating too much of the repetitive tasks to AI, then there's a worry that, what happens?
All the cognitively demanding work is left on the humans, and that can cause burnout, so we have to be a little bit careful there. I would also look at how work is distributed and make sure that the people you really rely on, the ones that you know will get it done no matter what, aren't too overwhelmed because that does come at a, a cost later.
, I remember even managing people and, yeah, I, I would probably take advantage of those people and not give work to the people who complained a lot. That's not really fair [00:21:00] either.
Chris Wofford: Right. Yeah.
Amy Newman: , Also look at work that no longer needs to be done, you know? Love that one. Yeah. New work comes in.
We just kinda pile on, and we don't like think about taking away work. And some of this might require us, the managers, also to demonstrate courage, advocate for the team, manage up, sometimes put the team in front of your own career goals. Yeah. That kind of thing can be difficult.
Chris Wofford: Right, the guiding philosophy behind servant leadership, which is not a concept or a, a construct that's familiar to everybody in the audience.
Could you tell us a little bit about that?
Amy Newman: Yeah. There's this follower aspect to it- Yeah ... that we are leading, but we're really guided by those we lead as well- Yeah ... and that we're prioritizing others above ourselves at times. That's how I see servant leadership.
Chris Wofford: That makes perfect sense. , Let's talk about leadership. So you've taught communication and leadership, , at Cornell for years. What qualities,, befit a leader? What kind of personality should they take on as it relates [00:22:00] to demonstrating leadership who does take burnout seriously?
Amy Newman: Yeah.
Chris Wofford: , There's a lot to it, but, the communication part is what I'm really curious about.
Amy Newman: Yeah, I would s- Explicit ... I would say the prevailing character dimension to focus on is humility.
Chris Wofford: Oh.
Amy Newman: And we think about humility as being equal level to others, neither above or below people. Mm-hmm. It's a little tricky because obviously we're literally above people on an organizational chart.
Hierarchies, yeah. But I would translate that as not doing, not asking people to do the kind of work that we wouldn't be able to do. I don't mean the physical technical work, but just that we're willing to take on the work that we're asking others to take on as well. Mm-hmm. Humility is also about making space for people, and particularly for the quieter people on our team, think we have to make a little bit more space for them.
I would suggest check-ins with people that focus not only on work results, which [00:23:00] is our tendency, work output, but also talk about the process of work and the workload itself. And some of those are tough conversations, and it does take a humble leader because we don't always wanna know the answer especially- Mm-hmm
if, people are having a tough time. But I also think it's okay, and it does take a humble leader too, to say, "I'm sorry I can't fix this for you right now. What can I do to help? But, this is the situation," and just be there to listen. Also, look for warning signs. Obvious ones, people are absent.
Less obvious ones, people might be sarcastic at work. They might make more errors. They might appear to be withdrawn. Mm-hmm. That kind of thing
Chris Wofford: You mentioned, the communication aspect to this. How a leader should communicate to a team. What about overarching culture? What about an organization that, does take burnout seriously, and it's just built into how we do [00:24:00] business?
Is that possible?
Amy Newman: Yeah. I do think it's possible. Okay. I think it has to do with staying close to the team- ... and figuring out what's going on. I think sometimes it's about prioritizing people over profit. That might be a difficult thing
Chris Wofford: For individuals and managers and leaders, let's send us off, let's go forth, with a positive mindset. You had some really good advice, when we were talking earlier about next steps. We've laid out the five pillars.
We've talked about what managers, employers need to start thinking about if they haven't already.
Amy Newman: Yeah.
Chris Wofford: But any advice as we , get moving forward, mindset stuff?
Amy Newman: I also wanted to say about the, the big picture and- Yeah ... belonging stuff- Uh-huh ... that, managers can really look at a team holistically and delegate some of these questions, right?
Some of these issues to the teams. We know autonomy is a big driver of work satisfaction. Mm. So teams can solve some of these problems on [00:25:00] their own, and that does develop belonging and, contributes to a belonging culture. I also wanna just say a quick thing about email, text, Teams, all of that contribute to this- Attention demand
exactly, and this always-on culture- Yeah ... that people already know about, but I don't know, sometimes we just can't seem to figure out a way to distinguish between what needs an immediate response and what can wait. So we're finding that people who check email just in tight windows throughout the day instead of all day long tend to, do a lot better.
Managers have to be okay with that.
Chris Wofford: That sounds great. And then there's productivity software, Slack, some of the project management kind of things, which changes the whole dimension. But the always on is probably to some degree, at some places by design.
Amy Newman: Yeah.
Chris Wofford: I mean, it is. I know.
It's explicit, right? If you work at, I don't know, Amazon or something like that, there's always on expectations.
Amy Newman: It's true. [00:26:00]
Chris Wofford: Things along those lines.
Amy Newman: And that's tough. Yeah.
Chris Wofford: Yeah. Tell us about your book, before we go. We're gonna share the URL for this.
Amy Newman: Sure. It's Recovery at Work: 12 Step Principles. Mm. And what I found that the kinds of principles that people use to get and stay sober can be helpful in the workplace.
Mm-hmm. And that's this idea, for example, of looking at what I can- control and let the things go that I can't control. It also has to do with hope and, seeing, imagining a better future and taking steps towards that. Mm-hmm. A program principle expression is one day at a time. It's like- Yeah
just look at today. Try not to worry too much about tomorrow, that we don't know what's going to happen. , But also to have some patience. , It might have taken a while for us to get burned out in our jobs, and it could take some time --to feel better again.
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