International wine expert Cheryl Stanley, senior lecturer in the Cornell Nolan School of Hotel Administration, returns to the Cornell Keynotes podcast to discuss wine appellations, designations and geographical indications with host Chris Wofford.
As the world of wine continues to expand, consumers can now experience flavors from a variety of international locales, including those from more traditional producers in France to newer winemakers in China. Cheryl Stanley, global wine expert and senior lecturer in the Cornell Nolan School of Hotel Administration, explores the differences in appellations, designations and geographical indications with host Chris Wofford in this episode of the Cornell Keynotes podcast from eCornell.
Join the pair for a tasting of wines from the German Mosel region and the American viticultural area plus a discussion of:
Wines in this episode:
Learn more in Cheryl Stanley’s eCornell certificate programs:
Did you enjoy this episode of the Cornell Keynotes podcast? Watch the full Keynote.
Chris Wofford: On today's episode, I'm joined once again by global wine expert and senior lecturer at Cornell's Nolan School of Hotel Administration, Cheryl Stanley. Cheryl and I popped some corks today and look into the differences in appellations, designations, and geographical indications among wines from around the world.
Chris Wofford: We're going to help you demystify and decode wine labels so that you can better understand what a sense of place means in wine appreciation. Yep, we're talking terroir today. And be sure to check out the episode notes for the details on eCornell's online certificate programs and courses on wine appreciation.
Chris Wofford: Of course, authored by my guest Cheryl Stanley. Listeners, let's go on this wine journey together. Here's my conversation with Cheryl.
Chris Wofford: Today we are going to be talking about various wine appellations, designations, indications, all of this information that sometimes we encounter on wine bottles that either is completely mysterious to us or intimidating, kind of at the same time. What is this all about? Give us a framework for understanding here.
Cheryl Stanley: So, boils down to a sense of place.
Chris Wofford: Okay.
Cheryl Stanley: Telling you where the grapes are from. Now, there are certain places that have much more rules and regulations, but generally speaking, if we have to say about the world of wine, A designation of place is just where the grapes are from.
Chris Wofford: And this is something that is particular the, the framework, the regulatory bodies are unique to countries, right?
Cheryl Stanley: Correct.
Chris Wofford: That's, that's how this works.
Cheryl Stanley: And it can go even unique to the specific area. So you can have a governing board of the area, which will write the rules and regulations associated with that area.
Chris Wofford: What is the point? You know, you had mentioned that it's to inform us as the consumer and you know, obviously producers are involved on the other side. to let us know where something comes from. Is there any other motivation to do this? we had talked before, is this a guarantee of quality, for instance?
Cheryl Stanley: You're gonna love my answer, Chris. It depends.
Chris Wofford: On what?
Cheryl Stanley: Well, it depends on, well, I should say quality always boils down to the producer. You could have a controlled and guaranteed wine from Italy, but one producer is going to be different than the next. Their vineyards, their sourcing is going to be different from another.
Cheryl Stanley: So, the place is going to give you a sense, but then the next step is you as a consumer has to do, have to do more research about the specific producer and their, and their method of production if it's not completely dictated by the rules and regulations of that place.
Chris Wofford: So let's take a case study. Let's look at France, for instance, right? So when we look at France we see on bottles, we see Burgundy, Beaujolais, more specifically, then we'll get into like Chateauneuf du Pape, Chablis, Fleury, like we had last week, it goes all the way down to like one side of the river. Yes. You know what I mean?
Cheryl Stanley: Exactly. One vineyard, X marks the spot, gets a Grand Cru, whereas five, feet down the lane, it's a named place, but it's not even classified. It's just a village. and what makes that different? so a lot of these rules. And especially the designation of place in European countries are hundreds of years old. These vineyards have been recognized, starting with the monks even the vineyards in, Portugal and, and specifically the port area up in the Douro Valley were demarcated in the 1700s because they recognized certain vineyards were better than the other.
Cheryl Stanley: Then as the regulations came about... specifically in the 1900s you know, in France in 1933, then in 1935, you're looking at, okay, putting some rules and regulations associated with it.
Chris Wofford: Now, what's the correlation between the geographical location and soil types for instance, right? Or the amount of water, drainage? All of that kind of stuff sort of figures into this stuff or how does that work?
Cheryl Stanley: It does because if you're going all the way down to a single vineyard that single vineyard as you mentioned is going to have different Soil so that soil can impact the flavor of the grapes then transmits into the finished wine So yes a wine from one vineyard could have a different flavor and aroma profile compared to a vineyard next door.
Cheryl Stanley: So it does take a lot of palate mileage when you get into these, these single vineyards, but I think it's, just understanding the difference and giving a consumer, giving someone confidence. And like, oh, okay, I know where this place is.
Chris Wofford: And there are restrictions sometimes prohibitively. We talked about the Vouvray scandal of 2014. Tell us about that. First of all, Vouvray, what are we talking about? What kind of wine?
Cheryl Stanley: Vouvray, well, Vouvray is a beautiful white wine producing area, and they produce sparkling wines as well, in the Loire Valley of France. And they're known for their Chenin Blanc.
Cheryl Stanley: And you had in 2014, the regulatory board of the Vouvray AOC came in and said, Okay. If you want to use Vouvray on your label, which demands more money in the market, you have to grow the grapes, make the wine, and bottle the wine within the Vouvray AOC. There are a couple producers who had just built some new production facilities outside of the Vouvray AOC.
Cheryl Stanley: So they were put in a little bit of a conundrum. Do I take my Chenin Blanc and ferment it and bottle it outside of the AOC and then have to declassify it so I can't make as much money? Or do I keep my winery, my production facilities within the AOC and be able to bottle it as Vouvray? So then now you are carrying the cost of two wineries and not one
Chris Wofford: So we just covered France Italy How does how is it Italy structured similarly or different?
Cheryl Stanley: Italy is structured similarly. They have an extra step They have the controlled and guaranteed the DOCG level which you'll see on the label. that takes a tasting step. So, you know, you asked that question earlier about quality.
Cheryl Stanley: So here you have that tasting step. If it doesn't meet the quality as designated by the tasting board of the area, that fruit or that wine will have to be declassified. And we see this in France and Italy as well. Certain areas maybe we're at the regional level, the IGT or IGP level for the various countries, protected geographic indication.
Cheryl Stanley: But, they've produced really, really good wine, and so the government is looking at actually elevating them up to an AOC, or in Italy's case, a DOC.
Chris Wofford: Germany. There's, there's lots going on in germany.
Cheryl Stanley: There are lots of things going on in Germany, and it's, it's an exciting time as an educator and as a lover of German wines.
Cheryl Stanley: Though, I'm still trying to get my feet underneath the new classification because it's, for those of you that are familiar with, with Burgundy and kind of what we were talking about, having the classification go to the specific vineyard. That is something that we're seeing now at the national level which historically you have the Verbandt Deutscher Pratikratz Weingüter, the VDP, the producer classification who already had a structured pyramid of regional village.
Cheryl Stanley: And then the single vineyard classifications for Premier Cru and Grand Cru. But now we're seeing it on the national level as well.
Chris Wofford: And this is due to wrap up, we were just talking a minute ago, 2025 or something like that.
Cheryl Stanley: Yes. They'll have until 2025 to kind of figure out which vineyards are going to be, good enough to be named at like the first cru level.
Cheryl Stanley: But then you'll have the best vineyards as well.
Chris Wofford: We've got a couple German wines to taste here.
Cheryl Stanley: We do.
Chris Wofford: What are we digging into?
Cheryl Stanley: We do. So we have a regional Mosel. and that's something that many consumers are comfortable with. They see Mosul, they know it's a high quality wine producing area.
Cheryl Stanley: This is a river valley.
Cheryl Stanley: This is a river valley, a very, very curvy river valley. And, when you see Mosul, great, you recognize the place, you know, it's going to have high acidity. Various sweetness levels depending on the wine. And this specific wine is the Zillikin. It's an estate Riesling. And this producer has vineyard sourcing primarily in the Tsar River.
Cheryl Stanley: But they labeled it as Mosel because it's reflective of the general region. And then we're gonna compare it actually. to a single vineyard of VDP Grosselaga. And again, I mentioned that the VDP already has this classification structure of recognizing the best vineyards. And this is specifically from the Josef Hofer vineyard.
Cheryl Stanley: But, let's just kind of look at the wines. If we look at the wines color wise, There's, the Josefhofer is just a little bit more intense in, in color, but both of them are, are fairly pale straw, you know, nothing crazy in, in terms of differences. And then if we smell. Both of them smell like Riesling, right?
Cheryl Stanley: And that's, that's the great thing is even with these new classifications, Germany and you know, even Austria in the future, they're going to label by variety. So you'll know as a consumer, okay, this is Riesling, I like Riesling, but it's the other terms on the labels that a village that you might not be familiar with or a vineyard.
Cheryl Stanley: You might need to just get your phone out and Google and it's okay.
Chris Wofford: We talked about sugar levels at harvest too, right? That's the cabinet designation that's on there.
Cheryl Stanley: The cabinet, yes, the Pradeekot vine. It's, it's part of within the wine with special attributes. So cabinet is the, the base level of ripeness within the Pradeekot.
Cheryl Stanley: And then if a producer harvest, well, and this is what's also interesting with these new classifications. They are designating certain grape varieties in certain vineyards, as well as certain ripeness levels at harvest. Perfect. Let's taste. Okay. Oh, we forgot our spit cups today.
Chris Wofford: Oh, we sure did.
Cheryl Stanley: Isn't this beautiful?
Chris Wofford: Oh, man.
Cheryl Stanley: I mean, just beautiful, bright acidity, yellow flowers, apples, peaches. Gorgeous. This is a beautiful expression of the Mosul.
Chris Wofford: It's a stunner. We're gonna share the uh, the names of each of these wines as we go through with the audience via chat . Just letting you know.
Chris Wofford: Heads up for that, audience.
Cheryl Stanley: Beautiful. then, let's get to our VDP Grosslager. So, Grosslager, this is the Josef Hofer, again. This is a specific vineyard within the Mosel.
Chris Wofford: Similar nose.
Cheryl Stanley: Similar nose, right? The peaches, apricots, white flowers. Still, that beautiful Mosul Syrian acidity is gorgeous. this wine, they label as a fine herb, so that means it's off dry, it has a little bit of residual sugar to it, but the acidity balance, it appears dry, almost, on the palate.
Cheryl Stanley: It's hard to say, what's the difference? What is the difference between the Mosul versus the Josephoffer? A little bit more intensity. Mm-hmm, intensity in color, intensity, in in flavor. and aromas. But both of these are, beautiful wines.
Chris Wofford: They really are. They're like a bouquet.
Cheryl Stanley: Exactly. Really. Exactly. And you know, as you, if you want to kind of play some fun games, do some fun events, you can get one producer and go up the pyramid. with that producer and try and even pick out what are the the slight nuances between the wines.
Chris Wofford: I'm so glad you brought these two. Those are beautiful.
Chris Wofford: Austria, similar deal with Germany is from a regulatory standpoint, right?
Cheryl Stanley: Yes they, they are, I should say, on a national level, you had some designations already they're expanding it once you hit the DAC or the controlled Austrian districts, then you can go for regional, village, and single vineyard. And just like the VDP in Germany, that producer classification, there are producer classifications that have been recognizing special vineyards on labels for decades.
Chris Wofford: What are some of the premier wines that come out of Austria that do Riesling similarly?
Cheryl Stanley: They, dry Riesling also, I mean we can't, Gruner Vettliner, beautiful.
Cheryl Stanley: And, and one thing is, These Gruner Vettliners can age, especially, they're not like the, the crown cap under 10 type. Yeah, exactly. It's these wines, you know, I have some in my cellar that are 25 years old that just take on this creaminess, this intensity of flavor. But I know there are certain vineyards in certain vintages that age better than others.
Chris Wofford: Glad I asked. Okay. So let's talk about non European countries. Old world versus new world. Breaking away from that type of terminology you mentioned.
Cheryl Stanley: Recognizing that they're European and Non European. And really highlighting that they're different, they have different laws and going away from New World and Old World.
Chris Wofford: Let's talk about the AVAs, the U. S. Official the Appalachians, American Viticultural Area is what we use here. How does this kind of play out? California, for example. Let's use that as a case study.
Cheryl Stanley: And California's a perfect one because they produce 85 percent of the wine, or approximately, in the United States.
Cheryl Stanley: Yeah. It's the designation of place. But it does not dictate to the producer what grape variety you are allowed to grow, method of production, etc. You know, states have the right to create stricter labeling laws and the percentage of grapes that must be from that AVA or American Viticultural Area.
Cheryl Stanley: But it's, it's really telling us as a consumer, this is where the grapes are from.
Chris Wofford: So when we see on a bottle this is nothing, probably nothing to the audience, but we'll see things like Napa Valley, Sonoma Valley. And then now California is drawing, you know, drawing down even further. We've got something from um, where's that California wine from?
Cheryl Stanley: Oak Knoll district within Napa Valley. So it's, it's fun for the two wines that we selected for California. We actually did a North Coast AVA and North Coast AVA is. Is a fairly large area, but it's made up of parts of multiple counties. So Napa County, Sonoma County, Lake County, Mendocino County are the primary ones.
Cheryl Stanley: And then we have a very, very small AVA in Napa Valley or with it. So it's kind of like concentric circles, but county down to Napa Valley and then the Oak Knoll district which is north of Napa city. So it's fun where it's a southern AVA influenced by San Pablo Bay But here you have North Coast, which also because it pulls the other AVA pulls from Sonoma County You have influence of the Pacific Ocean.
Cheryl Stanley: So how do those kind of compare against each other? And both of these are We have Cabernet. One has some Merlot in it, but even though What's labeled Cabernet Sauvignon? There's some other grapes Especially in, in the Hess Select. So North Coast AVA, both of these are 2019 vintage. So if you're doing this type of comparison at home, and you're trying to dig down to see, okay, what is the sense of place?
Cheryl Stanley: Based off of a wine label and production area, having the same vintage can be very helpful because you're taking out vintage variation. And this is why I selected 2019 for these two wines. Now the North Coast, I should say, we're taking out vintage variation. Producer variation can vary.
Cheryl Stanley: Oak usage, new oak versus old oak. But for both of these wines, similar to the Riesling, we're getting a sense of, Cabernet Sauvignon. Mm hmm. the black tea, a little bit of earl grey, English breakfast. Red fruits, black fruits. Also getting some influence of oak, which is in the method of production for both of these wines.
Cheryl Stanley: Certainly. But let's taste the North Coast. Let's do it.
Chris Wofford: Delicious.
Cheryl Stanley: Super delicious. Good tannin. Confirming those berry notes. Now let's compare it to the Oak Knoll District.
Chris Wofford: Which is Cabernet and Merlot.
Cheryl Stanley: Which is Cabernet and Merlot.
Chris Wofford: We don't know in what proportion, but.
Cheryl Stanley: Right, and the first one is actually Cabernet Sauvignon, a little Petit Syrah and Malbec.
Cheryl Stanley: For the Hessel Act.
Chris Wofford: This one's lovely.
Cheryl Stanley: The oak intensity is a little bit more on the nose.
Chris Wofford: It's a little more elegant. It's kind of got a better balance.
Cheryl Stanley: The texture is different on the palette. It coats more. I want to say The tannin is not as gripping. As the north coast. But we think about, Oak Knoll District is, is interesting because you have influence of the San Pablo Bay.
Cheryl Stanley: You're at the southern part of Napa Valley. You have morning fog, which helps cool down the vineyards, but it is stereotypically speaking, a ripe area. And we don't know the proportion of Cabernet Sauvignon or other grapes from the Hess Select that is sourced from Cooler climates of Sonoma or even in Mendocino.
Chris Wofford: What's the alcohol content of this?
Cheryl Stanley: You know, that's a really good question I see 13. 5 for the Hess Select.
Chris Wofford: This is 14. 3.
Cheryl Stanley: 14. 3. So a little bit more it's you know, nothing too crazy.
Chris Wofford: Nothing too crazy. I was thinking that it was a little crazier but yeah.
Cheryl Stanley: I think the average person be like, oh, yeah, or hi even me.
Cheryl Stanley: It's like these are great wines Both of them are wonderful to have at the table, to eat with food. Method of production changes a little bit. More oak on the second one. A little bit riper fruit to it. Which also can be in relation to the alcohol as well.
Chris Wofford: What about the prices on these? Do you recall what you spent on these?
Cheryl Stanley: The Hesse, I want to say, was 18?
Chris Wofford: Okay, yeah.
Chris Wofford: Well under 20. The other one's what?
Cheryl Stanley: And the
Cheryl Stanley: other's like 25.
Chris Wofford: Okay. There you go. Good to know. How much do those Rieslings run? Ballpark.
Cheryl Stanley: Those are 25 plus or? Rieslings, the Mosel was 19. 99. And the Josefhofer was 26. 99.
Chris Wofford: Great. These two are lovely. The Californias.
Chris Wofford: Let's go to South America. See if we can hit our next couple here. These are both Chilean wines. Tell us a little bit about big picture. What are we dealing with in Chile appellations, geographical indications, and so on. What's the scene there?
Cheryl Stanley: Well, it's, it's so hard because historically speaking with Chilean wine, we just thought Chile and we didn't recognize or even fully understand all of these various growing areas, which, you know, similar to California, really can change if you're growing right along the Pacific Ocean.
Cheryl Stanley: It's much cooler than if you're growing in the Central Valley or even in the Andes and now as Consumers are diving deeper into Chilean wines, but also people are label, you know, Chilean producers are labeling. They are celebrating much more a sense of place, and I think it's really exciting in the market.
Cheryl Stanley: Don't be afraid to pick up and look at the back label. When you're at the store. Yes, you'll see Chile, maybe on the front, but really picking up and looking at the back label to see where it's from because they'll say D. O. or Denominación de Jorge Hen. And that is giving a sense of where the wine or where the grapes are from.
Chris Wofford: What about Argentina?
Cheryl Stanley: Argentina is doing some interesting things with their wine laws as well. They have geographic indications, which would be much larger areas. And then they have D. O. C. s. which we, of course, associate with European labeling. DOCs have specific grapes that can be allowed to use, yields, alcohol levels even aging.
Cheryl Stanley: Some have aging characteristics.
Chris Wofford: Good to know. So what are we digging into here?
Cheryl Stanley: So we have here, and this is where picking up the back label is important. So our first one is the Conchituro Casillo del Diablo. And on the front label, it's, it says Reserva Cabernet Sauvignon. And on the front label, it just says Chile.
Cheryl Stanley: But then picking up on the back label, it says Central Valley or Val Central. And that is a very large growing area. So can we get a sense of place from there? That's arguable. you can argue either way. Yes, it's gonna be different than if it was growing right on the coast, but it's like the Central Valley of California, there's a lot of climactic differences within it.
Chris Wofford: You'll see this wine this is a round. This retails for about nine dollars.
Cheryl Stanley: Exactly.
Chris Wofford: A lot of restaurants will carry this.
Cheryl Stanley: One of the reasons why I want to pick this is because it's a very friendly wine. I purchased it for 9. 99 today. It's juicy, fruity. We don't get an intense amount of oak on this wine but also, considering the price point too.
Cheryl Stanley: But then we're comparing it against the Echeveria uh, limited, I think it's a limited edition.
Chris Wofford: It is.
Cheryl Stanley: And it's from the Maipo Valley. So, Maipo Valley, just north of the Central Valley, it's a smaller area. So, again, going back to that sense of place. Both of these are Cabernet Sauvignon, but the intensity of the Echeveria is
Chris Wofford: It's striking. Yeah. Yes. It is.
Cheryl Stanley: But both of these wines are beautiful and there is a place at the table for each of them. If you want to dig deeper into the place, and this is where also looking at going back to producer always is the final note of quality, maybe they have growing practices. Maybe they're organic. Maybe they're a biodynamic, something that you personally want to support in your, with your dollar.
Chris Wofford: Yeah, there you go. Thank you. Very different wine.
Cheryl Stanley: Mm hmm. Much more intense. Again, aromatically intense. The color is much richer. You're getting some spice notes. The oak, much more presence of oak. Very, very well integrated. Into the wine. Just looking at the color of these two.
Chris Wofford: Yeah. Just a lot, a lot less fruit. Peppery. Mm hmm. It's lovely.
Cheryl Stanley: But that one still is, is 24. 99. So you think about... It's giving you more of a sense of place, but you're not breaking the bank. And that's where, just looking at any of the wine labels, don't be afraid to pick up the back label.
Cheryl Stanley: And I have to say there's sometimes I've done that too, where I look at the front label and I'm like, where is this wine from? Oh my gosh, so much more information is on the back label. And just educating yourself. Do you like, you know, if you really, really love Cabernet Sauvignon from Napa Valley, do you like the mountain AVA's?
Cheryl Stanley: Howell Mountain, Spring Mountain, because you like fruit that's grown at higher elevation. Well, if you like that, then you can also translate it to some of, in Chile, the higher elevation vineyards there as well.
Chris Wofford: Right, and this becomes part of what you call your wine journey.
Cheryl Stanley: Exactly.
Chris Wofford: You start to figure out your thing. And it can go down to, you know, elevation, side of the river. And you kind of start making yourself crazy. Cheryl is faculty author of several courses on wine. and certificate programs offered through Cornell University. I know that there's a whole segment within your courses about reading the label and trying to make sense of that.
Chris Wofford: Who's the winemaker? Where, where is that? The type of wine? The AOC information and all that kind of stuff.
Cheryl Stanley: Yes. Every wine has to have a producer. Every wine has to have the alcohol by volume. A wine does not have to have a vintage though. If an AVA wine from the United States, then yes, it has to have a vintage.
Cheryl Stanley: And this is where sometimes, depending on the classification of the wine, it might not list a vintage.
Chris Wofford: So why not list a vintage? How does it happen? Tell us what's going on from the producer's standpoint.
Cheryl Stanley: From the producer's standpoint, it could just be a basic, basic table wine and they blend. There are some producers that do multiple vintage wines. For example, cane is a great example, and they have a multi vintage blend. That's just non vintage.
Chris Wofford: And this allows for, just thinking about the practicality of it consistency?
Cheryl Stanley: Exactly. Well, think about non vintage champagne.
Cheryl Stanley: So, non vintage champagne, you have the wine from the year, and then you add the reserves. And there was a vintage champagne, or not a vintage, a non vintage champagne that I poured the other day. that had 60 percent of reserve wine from previous years blended in. But that's just to create a house style.
Cheryl Stanley: So if I buy it today, if I buy it five years from now, it tastes the same.
Chris Wofford: So we visited Germany. We checked out California and Chilean wines. Turns out China is emerging as a potential huge player in the short and long
Chris Wofford: term.
Cheryl Stanley: Yes There is some really really interesting stuff going on in the Chinese wine market in the production And high elevation high high elevation in some parts of the country they actually have to bury the vines in the wintertime and or in monsoon season to protect them, but it's, we are seeing some of the wines here in the United States and just not that much.
Cheryl Stanley: It's primarily for the Chinese market, with those Chinese wines that are being produced, you have a lot of investment from large wine companies or beverage companies from around the world. Cause they see the Chinese market as being large, but then also the export market as well.
Chris Wofford: Yeah, the seventh largest in the world, or fifth, it depends on the source and kind of where that comes from.
Chris Wofford: Okay, well, we'll be on the case when that starts to kind of happen. When we see some Chinese wines on the shelves, Sarah, we'll do a tasting.
Cheryl Stanley: Definitely.
Chris Wofford: As far as today, thank you so much for coming in and talking about designations, appellations, and indications.
Cheryl Stanley: And thank you. And I just want to say one thing, Chris.
Chris Wofford: What?
Cheryl Stanley: Don't be afraid to take out your phone and Google. If you don't know a term or you think it's a place, but you're not quite sure. I have to admit, I do it myself. I'm like, I don't know what that means. Oh, okay. Google it.
Chris Wofford: Your local wine shop will be more than happy to inform you and sell you some, some cool stuff.
Cheryl Stanley: Exactly.
Chris Wofford: Thanks for listening to Cornell Keynotes. Check out the episode notes for information on those online certificate programs and wine appreciation from eCornell. Thanks again, friends, and stay in touch. Cheers.