As development of the space technology sector grows, new opportunities for the private sector are becoming more accessible than ever before. Join us to explore the dynamic world of space technology with the New York Consortium for Space Technology led by Cornell University.
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Chris Wofford: [00:00:00] On today's episode of Cornell Keynotes, we are joined by two innovators and key players in the ever growing space technology industry here in New York State. Mason Peck and Greg Ray are from the New York Consortium for Space Technology based here at Cornell University. It's a groundbreaking center which is funded by the U.
S. Department of Defense and led by Cornell. We cover all aspects of the industry. We particularly focus on technologies, opportunities, and look closely at recent growth in the private sector to help us get a handle on where things are headed. This is a fast growing sector of the economy right now. So check out the episode notes to learn how you can get involved with the New York Consortium for Space Technology.
And heads up for information on their Symposium for Space Technology, Innovation, and Development, which is going to be taking place here in Ithaca, New York, on May 8th and May 9th of this year. And now, here's our conversation with Mason Peck and Greg Ray.
[00:01:00] Welcome you both.
it might surprise some of our listeners to learn that space is big business at this point in the U. S. and all around the world. Just how big is it? Mason, let's start with you.
Mason Peck: Around the world, it's nearly half a trillion dollars. of economic activity in the U.
S. It's north of 130 billion a year. And at that rate, that's coming up on 1 percent of the GDP for the nation. And that 1 percent might seem like a small number. But remember, people, I think, often think of space as this niche area with every now and then we send an astronaut to space or maybe there's a science mission.
There's a lot going on, and it's pervading GPS, for example, locates your phone and all sorts of other things. Communications we couldn't do without space for that reason. So really, it's kind of everywhere, even though it might not be so visible.
Chris Wofford: And how about for you, Greg how do you see things economically and what are the opportunities in space?
Greg Ray: Yeah, you know, like Mason said, um, almost a half a trillion dollars. If you stacked up [00:02:00] dollar coins, you'd have enough to to get to the moon and back is the height of the stack. I mean, it's a, it's a lot of money globally. Um, you know, one of the cool things is NASA issued the Artemis Accords a few years ago.
Um, it, it was an initiative to set out some measures. Um, of how we could responsibly and sustainably explore space. And we've had, um as of 2024, about 53 nations sign onto that. So, you know, space on the whole is gaining tremendous momentum economically, but also in the hearts of people and in the strategies of nations.
Chris Wofford: So let's get into the opportunity itself. How companies, how are they making money with spacecraft? ?
Mason Peck: And it's a couple different things. In fact, for decades now, certainly since the late 80s, companies have made a lot of money in communications. You know, carrying traffic for cell phones, pagers internet in the sky, um you know, DirecTV, for example, right?
It's all video. Sirius XM radio, so digital radio. [00:03:00] So these have always been money makers and have been, that's been true for decades, it'll continue. Coming up now we've got Starlink which is SpaceX's constellation that's providing, again, internet from space for all sorts of regions all around the world.
Even has, you know, interesting geopolitical implications. So, that's been very much a mainstay. What's changed in the last just really few years is the prospect of making money in space by, let's say, manufacturing things for use on the ground or making money in space by supporting a permanent presence there.
So we expect in the next couple decades for the world, and particularly the U. S., to have a permanent presence on the moon. That permanent presence requires communications, requires resupply in terms of fuel, oxygen, water, all sorts of other things. And all the infrastructure around that for transportation, communications, supply chain, logistics, all this stuff is a money maker.
So going forward, I think that's where a lot of that money is. And so that's one reason why you see, at the moment, I think it's 160 [00:04:00] rocket companies that have started up in recent years. Not all of them will be successful. Sure. We have seen some successes like SpaceX and Blue Origin, but, um, that's another way in which you'd make money is actually providing the space transportation to get all these other things to space.
Chris Wofford: I'm curious about two other things. Mining resources on asteroids and the moon. And there's also this other component to the national security component. tell me about what's going on in those two spaces.
Greg Ray: you know, national security is huge. Um, we have adversaries around the world that are trying to, understand more about what what our national interests are in space.
and uh, our national security infrastructure, particularly uh, Space Force, um, they are trying to counter that with new technologies. a key component of that is the ability to do space domain awareness, um new technologies in earth observation, um, as well as communication technologies that allow us to, communicate securely not only between assets on orbit, but between uh, space assets and, and the [00:05:00] earth.
So national security is a huge emphasis right now.
Mason Peck: Yeah, I think it might even be national security that leads this, but certainly NASA is also interested in that mining question. You know, you could say that all the mass, all the material we'll ever need for a permanent Presence beyond Earth is already up in space.
It's just in the wrong shape, right? It's in the shape of ore on the moon, maybe liquid water from asteroids, comets, and other places. So, if we think that that's our future, if we think that our future is a permanent presence, whether, again, for national security or economic or scientific reasons in space, we need to seed that with materials to build spacecraft there, build, let's say, Habitats or other, you know, even factories in, in space.
So that's one reason to do this mining. It might be cheaper to get it from space than to bring it all the way up there and then you run it through a 3D printer and get what you want. So it's an interesting future where that prospect of mining probably the surface of the moon, honestly, in the near term, but maybe astronoids at some point, [00:06:00] where that's the most economically viable.
Approach. It doesn't, it wouldn't have made sense. It doesn't really make sense now. It might not have made sense 20 years ago either. But in the near future, we'll need so much to keep uh, the economy and all the activities going that we will be turning to the moon for those resources. So companies that are going to be doing lunar mining and lunar prospecting, these may have a bright future.
Chris Wofford: We think of some of the legacy companies, the Boeings, the Lockheeds, the Northrops, etc. somewhat recently, over the last couple of decades, SpaceX has become a player in this space. And you just mentioned a moment ago that we're, we're near 200 companies who are sending craft into space for various reasons.
There's also a startup component to this. Any, any notable startups and how do they get competitive in this space? I
Mason Peck: mean, I'm excited by a number of startups. I think, Greg, you're excited about a number of them, too. One thing to say is that almost all space companies are very young right now.
Sure, there's the Lockheeds, the Boeings, Northrop Grumman. They do good work, and they're still around, and they're contributing important technologies and solutions. [00:07:00] But also, in this innovation space, there are folks like Varda Space Industries. They're building the capability to manufacture things in orbit, return them to Earth, and sell them for a profit.
So that could be Medications, right? So the purity of protein growth that you get in space may be the motivation for that. You can create better medic medicine that way. Another thing that you could do, maybe, is create fiber optic cable. The fiber optics you could make in microgravity are much more pure and much more transmissive, and so you could lower the cost of doing that on the Earth, and even though the cable itself might be more expensive as such, you avoid the cost of the repeaters and other things.
So, so there are companies focused on things you might not have thought of as space problems. Manufacturing these materials. Um, but there's also companies doing some really innovative interesting stuff. Blue Origin, a company you mentioned, right? That's Jeff Bezos's company. He's uh, hoping to develop a, business park in space, Orbital Reef, where companies can go and do and, go and do the sorts of things we're talking about, or maybe even others.
So providing [00:08:00] the means for innovation is another thing that we see happening in some of these startups.
Greg Ray: Yeah, I mean, I think uh, touching on orbital reef is, is really important because when we, when we think about the future of space, particularly with, um, you know, research, the stuff we've been doing on ISS in low, low Earth orbit, you know, ISS is going to be deorbiting in about five years and we need a replacement.
So Blue Origin uh, you know, they're working on, orbital reef, but we've also got vast with Haven one, we've got ask axiom, um, they're going to be building some modules for the ISS. Of course, my company and my personal favorite is star lab. Um, that we are producing a solution as well. So, really there's some exciting, facilities going to be coming online that are going to be able to not just continue the legacy of the ISS, but enable a number of new technologies and new advancements.
Mason Peck: So ISS, the International Space Station, right? Sure. And what, what is the value proposition for Starlab?
Greg Ray: For Starlab? Yeah. Um, well, it's going to be one of the, the central facilities on orbit that will allow you to continue the type of research we do on [00:09:00] ISS but also we see it as a, keystone for uh, igniting the space economy and what I mean by the space economy is, all of the different components that are necessary to, make space work.
So we've got batteries, we've got computers, we've got in space resource utilization, we've got in space assembly and manufacturing, Edge computing. I mean, I've already said that one. but there's this whole ecosystem that has to be created. And in order to do that, you have to have platforms that are there, ready to, um, receive it, but then build off of it. So.
Mason Peck: And there's this old saying that you can't, fly until it flies. The idea being that you have to test something exhaustively to ensure it'll work in space. And so, having a platform where you can actually try some of these things out before you invest a lot of money or, or, or risk human lives is essential, right?
It, it's also true, though, that with, um, This future where it may not be as expensive to send things to orbit or where you can, in fact, make them in orbit, maybe we'll end up not worrying as much about the reliability of spacecraft. Maybe you can fix them when they break, which [00:10:00] currently is too expensive a proposition.
You know, NASA has done that with the Hubble Space Telescope. They've sent, I think, it's four repair missions, each one of which at least half a billion dollars. That's not a sustainable model for commercial space.
Greg Ray: And, you know, the cost of space is drastically reducing. I was, I was looking the other day, you know, when we started with the space shuttle, it was about 50, 000 per kilogram.
If you're into pounds, roughly divide that by half. So 25, 000 per pound to get it up into space. Um, and with the you know, as new companies have come on online, SpaceX is the leader right now, but we've also got, um, Firefly. We've got Rocket Lab with their Electron rocket, um, as well as Blue Origin with New Glenn.
That cost for per kilogram of, of upmass is what we call it, has gone from that 50, 000 per kilo level. We're looking at kilo now. And once Starship comes online fully, they project that'll take it down [00:11:00] to 200 to 400 a kilogram. So we're really getting to the point of Um, having, having launch vehicles and facilities that can, can enable us to achieve some of the things that have long been the goal, that have been out of reach for us, um, for cost and, you know, our ability to actually get the stuff up on the door.
And thereby
Chris Wofford: making startups more competitive right out of the gate because of that low cost. That's
Mason Peck: right. It's a lower bar to entry. Yeah. It's also the case that you can design an entirely different. type of spacecraft if you're not worried about its reliability. I mean, you always will want to make it reliable.
But at the end of the day, if you fail and need to build it again, you could maybe afford it if you're not trying to make it this exquisite spacecraft that will survive 10, 15 years without intervention. So I think that, that, that lowering the barrier. to entry just on the basis of cost is one thing, but also changing the entire paradigm where we no longer have to make these extraordinarily high reliability spacecraft.
That's, that's also going to change the landscape. I think it [00:12:00] already has with, with, with Starship. So the Starship super heavy launch vehicle, that's a SpaceX is developing. Um, those low rates, you know, 200 a kilogram, maybe a hundred dollars per pound, I guess we'll do it by pounds. It's cheaper. But with with that, that low cost, um, it's about as expensive to send something to space as to mail it across the country.
If I were to FedEx a pound from, let's say, New York to L. A., we're talking about tens to maybe a hundred bucks. And so if you think about how, again, sort of supply chain logistics happen in the country and people mailing parts all over the place, that's about the same as doing it for space. So.
Things that we do on Earth are going to be things we do in space. And I think that's kind of an exciting future, where we don't have to think of space as only this niche area with exotic technologies. They could be very terrestrial, very familiar technologies. On the moon, for example, if you're going to be mining on the moon, you maybe don't develop a new extraordinary [00:13:00] 10 billion rover with a special attachment.
You just launch something made by Caterpillar. And now it functions as you would have wanted it to for mining on the, on the Earth. So I think that's just a neat future that's enabled by lower cost launch.
Chris Wofford: So how do you see government, industry, educational interacting? What's going on now, and where is it headed?
Greg Ray: Yeah, well, um, you know, having been at Cornell, worked on the university side, and now working on the commercial side, it's been interesting in the last year for me to be able to see the, the, how these, how these Two entities interact.
One of the things that I think is important to, to mention is that, The government sits right in the middle of it right now, but we've not got to the place at least on the commercial side, where we can, fund everything strictly at the commercial level. So we really need those government partnerships.
Um, so it's really important that we have advocacy for government, um, that, um, our policies are space friendly, um, both to universities, but also to the commercial side. And if we can, if we can get that moving in [00:14:00] the, keep it moving in the right direction then that's going to be a big win. But when we, when we talk about universities industry, really, um, they play.
Critical roles are kind of two sides of the same coin. So the universities we're looking at found a foundational role. They're the ones that are, um, identifying, um, the, the fundamental problems that need to be solved that are eventually going to to lead to the enablement of new innovations to get us on space and get us in space and keep us there.
Um, the other side of that coin is the industry side. We're moving at a, at a much quicker pace. Then academic research in general. Um, and industry is the driver of a lot of the, um the actual applicable innovations that are necessary to happen. So it's, it's this trifecta of stakeholders that are necessary at this point to keep us moving forward.
I don't know. What do you think? I
Mason Peck: think that's right. I mean, this, this, this. This distinction between academia and [00:15:00] industry, where academia is slow and industry is fast, I think it's not wrong. But one of the things that's at stake is that when universities are conducting fundamental research, and particularly the basic research, as opposed to applied research, that basic research, it takes a while, but you need to have it.
So, as a company, and I'm not speaking for your company or anyone else's, but a lot of companies do invest in IR& D, so Internal Research and Development, or IRAD, people call it. Um, when they do so, there's always this tension between, we'd like to invest in something that's going to turn into a profit really soon, because that is what they're there for.
Um, at the same time, those really foundational innovations don't necessarily lead to profit right then. Once you've got them then you corner the market. So that's one of those ways in which universities and companies can work together. I think with the university investing some of its time and effort with maybe government sponsorship or even universities industry sponsorship in some hard problem.
Yes, that research is open, [00:16:00] so it's published. Um, but working closely with a university partner an industry can benefit from not only that innovation but just gaining the experience. Getting exposed to how to make these things work that makes them just that much ahead of the competition. So even though we think of our research and university context as being for everybody the fact is when we're working closely with industry, you get a leg up.
And that's you know, you, you can't really put much of a price on that because it really has to do with your, um, your future markets. So when industry poses a problem to a university, even if it's one that a university can take on in a general way, Um, the, the company does benefit. And this is partly what's going on with MICST, if I may.
So MICST, our consortium we are trying to bridge that, that relationship between industry and government. We translate the research from from universities into something that's relevant to those companies. It's still fundamental research we conduct, but we can also bring industry along for that ride.
We, and because [00:17:00] we do testing and all sorts of other exciting stuff in our facilities, we can give those companies Exposure to how to advance their technology. So we wouldn't be doing it as a so called defense service, but we do provide them access to these maybe unique facilities. A quick example is when you're trying to launch something into space, it's got to survive the vacuum environment of space, right?
Well, we have a thermal vacuum chamber. So an industry who's maybe never made a space part before and doesn't, therefore have, doesn't have its own thermal vacuum chamber, they come to us, partner with us, and we give them access to that, and we conduct some fundamental research alongside of it, and everybody benefits.
So there, there is a way to bridge that gap. I think it doesn't require that, for example, university Signs a nondisclosure agreement saying we will never release the results of our research. Instead, we take on problems that are of general interest. You're
Greg Ray: speaking as a, as a university professor. I am. So, as a company who is moving at the space, at the pace of you know, um, investors or you know, um, the different [00:18:00] stakeholders, you know, it's it's interesting you bring that up.
So, yes, we started NYTA for, so that we could, um, bring these, these different stakeholders together. Yeah. Um, Um, you know, I, I see the benefit, you know, direct benefit for startups, um, they really need to have access to. The expertise at a university, the talent pool, the facilities, um, but I'm still trying to understand more about how midsize companies can, um, can take advantage of that university relationship.
And so I, I bring that up because, um, you know, this, the pace of innovation at the university. Um, you know, let's say it's, it's years, a year to five years, um, at a company they're looking at a quarterly a pace. So they're, they're running on parallel tracks, but at, at different rates. I'm excited about the consortium model though, because it, it, it kind of forces us all to, to recognize and address these issues and, [00:19:00] um, you know, there's a lot of these consortiums going on right now.
University of Florida has one down in Texas, they've got, got several, um, but it's, um, It's really been kind of the rock tumbler that we all get into and we're kind of rough around the edges, but after we spin around a few times, we get smooth for for being with each other. So it's, it's just, it's been really interesting.
It's informative to me to see how that dynamic inside the consortium changes, um, how we approach these relationships and innovation.
Mason Peck: I thought you were playing the straight man there. I'm going to have to slip you a 20 afterward because the, the question you're asking, how is it that a midsize or even a large company could benefit from a relationship with a consortium?
I think the quick answer there is a lot of these companies as is appropriate is very, are they're very focused on delivering for customers, right?
If
Mason Peck: they do have a thermal vacuum chamber in our example. That's a hundred percent booked, getting their hardware into space for some some sponsor. And then when they want to conduct uh, uh, IRAD, um, they have no resources, no lab benches.
Maybe even their staff is busy doing [00:20:00] the day to day stuff necessary to meet those customers needs, as opposed to investing in the future. And it's just a natural thing that a lot of organizations do. They sacrifice the long term for the short term. We do this in our personal lives all the time, right? So this is, um, A reason for us to exist and to help, we provide elasticity, if you like, in a company's desire to pursue IRAD.
So that they want, they want to do this, but they can't because they haven't got the resources, or they haven't got the time. So, you know, For example uh, Voyager Space as as our local example if you have a particular technology interested in maturing, you bring it to M-Y-C-S-T because you haven't got your own thermal vacuum chamber 'cause it's busy.
Or your folks who would conduct the, I Rad, maybe a couple of them can spare a few hours, but maybe that's just enough to provide guidance to a graduate student and then that graduate student can make the progress that you wish you could make. So that's just an example, but that's a way in which we actually can provide some.
additional acceleration to what companies do. I mean, we need to remember that,
Greg Ray: that word elasticity. That is, [00:21:00] that is really important because I think you hit on it. Um, you know, companies are focused on this quarter responding to this request for proposal meeting this demand of a client. And, um, a lot of times it's an all hands on deck thing, but if we did have the elasticity.
to, um, expand and contract our, our capability. Um, that would be a tremendous, tremendous advantage.
Mason Peck: Yeah, companies don't dare, um, staff up in anticipation of work they're not sure about. So, almost always, a lot of organizations, I don't mean to speak for yours, but a lot of organizations are a little understaffed anyway.
So, this provides, again, elasticity or some other kind of scheduling capability margin that that could help.
Greg Ray: We
Mason Peck: should
Greg Ray: put that on the website. Elasticity.
Chris Wofford: Gentlemen, we did a prerecorded session with John Neal, who is executive director of space policy at the U.
S. Chamber of Commerce. John provides an excellent overview of where he sees the industry going in the near and long term. Again, [00:22:00] from the government perspective, Neal's video, please.
John Neal: Hello. My name's John Neal. I am the Executive Director for Space Policy at the United States Chamber of Commerce here in Washington, D. C. I'm a native Western New Yorker, so really excited to be with you today and be with the New York Consortium for Space Technology. I've been here at the Chamber Now, for 2 and a half years, where I work with aerospace and space companies, ranging from, you know, Boeing's and Lockheed Martin's of the world down to venture funded startups companies that work in every sector of the space industry.
It's been a really fascinating time here at the chamber. You know, we've seen explosive growth in the industry. Just last year, the Space Foundation. Reported that the global space economy is worth 570Billion dollars and a McKinsey report earlier this year said the space economy could be worth 1.
8Trillion dollars by [00:23:00] 2035, which is incredible when we think about. The activity that could be going on in orbit in the next 5 to 10 years. But here at the chamber, you know, working with our member companies, we see a lot of hurdles that need to be still overcome in order to make that those numbers a reality before we talk about that.
Let me just go back to, you know, what are how are companies actually making money in the space industry? And there's a couple areas satellite communications. So now you're, you know, we are as consumers getting features on our smartphones that allow us to communicate and remote areas. Because there's more satellite communication availability to both government and.
Consumers like ourselves. Earth observation. So, you know, once what was once the domain of like agencies like the National Reconnaissance Office, we've seen [00:24:00] a growth in companies that are putting satellites into orbit that can take pictures of the earth every day so that farmers, oil companies, bankers, and investors, FEMA, and first responders are able to use Pictures that they can get on a smartphone to understand the change that's occurred in the environment that they're interested in this capability.
It's super important for our response to the wildfires in California or hurricane response. We're also seeing with the transition from the International Space Station commercial U. S. companies, which are going to build space stations where astronauts will be able to travel to. You may even be able to go and spend a weekend as a tourist.
And there will be an incredible amount of science conducted on these platforms due to the microgravity environment. That's [00:25:00] unique in lower orbit. Lastly, supply chain and components makers, manufacturers in New York state and across the country. That are able to build sophisticated components for all these spacecraft that are going to be needed.
There'll be a lot of opportunity there. We believe.
You know, we've seen, and we think about all the proliferation and the innovation that we've over the past year here in the space industry. And what does that do to all these new companies are emerging, but they still depend on government as their primary customer as they build out more and more commercial use cases.
1 of the things that we're working very hard on at the chamber of commerce is to help government move from whether it was NASA or the Department of defense. Building their own satellites, their own spacecrafts for a government mission and government purpose to leverage all this new commercial technology and buy it as a service like they would as software or [00:26:00] other technologies.
Could these commercial companies are putting a lot of money into R and D and taking that risk government doesn't need to do that anymore. And we're working very hard with the government to change that that mentality.
I also get asked a lot, you know, how do we help our companies become more successful from the chamber's view? That's 2 things advocating for them both with the federal government and in Congress. Getting the word out about workforce needs. There's a lot of companies that need skilled labor, welders, technicians to help build the components, the spacecraft.
I think testing too. What Cornell is doing to build the test beds and labs, we need more and more of that. We all know that it's very hard to operate in space. You have to have very rugged materials to deal with the radiation. They have to be able to survive for years and years in [00:27:00] that environment. More and more testing capabilities, like what Cornell's bringing online will be a huge benefit both to these commercial companies and the government as they look to rate these new systems, particularly as we take more and more humans in the space for safety purposes.
And then lastly, you know, it's very exciting. I get asked a lot about what innovations. Are we looking at in the past in the coming years? So, to achieve our ambitions, like, of the Artemis program and get. You know, humans back on the moon and ultimately to Mars, we need 3 things power, communications and transportations.
And communications. We see a lot of innovation around laser communications, which will allow spacecraft to communicate with each other in orbit on the power side. Nuclear a lot of companies developing nuclear capabilities that will enable propulsion into deep space. So, how can the chamber [00:28:00] work with the companies to get those, you know, the regulatory approvals here in Washington to develop that technology and on transport.
You know, SpaceX has proven its ability to get spacecraft into orbit at a much lower cost than before, which has allowed, you know, enable this industry to take shape that next generation of its Starship and other companies like Blue Origin, other launch companies, getting more and more material and space will be critical and lastly software.
I think space 2. 0 will be defined by. Artificial intelligence, more and more data, quantum technologies, that will be the new enabler of our next. Huge advancement into space.
Chris Wofford: Greg and Mason, John mentioned in the video about new spacecraft being launched, we had discussed in our pregame huddle a little bit about small spacecraft, some small enough to hold in your hand or store within a suitcase. And, and, [00:29:00] and you had told me also that these are the most common types of spacecraft being launched.
Mason Peck: These small spacecraft, and they can be the size of a coffee cup or maybe the microphone here, Um, they are small enough that they're easily handled. Therefore, they're cheap to launch. In fact, you make so many of them that the way in which they interface with the launch vehicle, that is to say, the way that they're packaged can be the same for every single one of them.
That Kind of template, that cookie cutter approach to making spacecraft is very different from what was done 20, 30 years ago, where everything, single spacecraft was artisanal, you know, unique, exquisite in certain ways. So these small spacecraft, sometimes they're cubesats or nanosats, they're called, or picosats.
They are the most commonly launched type of spacecraft today. Hundreds per year. I think approaching five or six hundred per year and that's across small businesses, universities, even large companies and the military, they've all found a use for these tiny platforms. One of the key innovations that they represent is quick [00:30:00] turnaround.
And it's also low stakes, right, if you, if you have a little tiny spacecraft that costs you maybe a few thousand dollars to put together, I mean, it's not cheap to you and me, I guess, but that is still much, much cheaper than typical spacecraft. So if they fail, you know, launch another one. And that's, that makes a big difference.
How you approach the design of those is, is very different, but, you know, your company actually launches a large number of these things.
Greg Ray: Yeah, we do. So, um, yeah, we do a lot of implementation. You know, I think what John said was really good. To get to the moon, we're going to need power, communications, transport.
You know, we know we've got to throw a lot of stuff up into space really quickly to be able, to be able to do that. Um, but, There's a lot of gaps in that technology. Um, you know, we need to enable technologies that are going to make up for the deficiencies that we recognize exist. So, when we think about small spacecraft, um, we're, like, like Mason said, um, you know, the risk is much lower.
So if we want to do a technology demonstration on, let's say [00:31:00] you know, edge computing or a orbiting data center of multiple, small satellites, right? We can send a small, you know, a cube set up that has one function and it has a edge computing processor on it. Um, it doesn't cost us a whole lot of money.
And so, um, by utilizing just a kind of a swarm approach to, um, Putting many different technologies on up in orbit with the small satellites we're able to address some of these technology enablers that are going to be necessary to build the subsystems. And then from there, the, the larger systems to, to do what John was talking about, to get to the moon and be able to do this.
So, um, you know, for startups in particular, um, that are focusing on one or two technologies, there's really no better way, in my opinion, than to, Build a small sat, build a build a cube, sat and get a a government SBR grant, um, test it out and hopefully be able to transition that up to a you know, a subsystem level [00:32:00] type technology.
And I think that's, again, not to plug it, I mean, we are plugging N-Y-C-S-T, right? Like, we wanna talk about it because it's, it's really a game changer. But, you know, a company here in New York State. They can bring their small technology, they can come to NYCST and our facilities, they can build a CubeSat, they can test it they can use the funding from, from the government and the expertise that they, they have access to at the university to get this thing on orbit and say, yes.
This works. And we've got a number of companies in the consortium to do that. So,
Mason Peck: yeah, exactly. So Cornell itself has done a number of these CubeSats over the years. Again, the size of a grapefruit or something like that. Um, but they've also been applied to other things. So there's a company called Starfish Space that has devised a means to fly a very small spacecraft up to a large one and manipulate in some way, maybe repair something, maybe refuel it.
Although I'm not sure that's the priority, but there's a variety of other things you could do. with these small spacecraft that are an intermediary between what we have now and what we'd like to do. Um, but the small spacecraft can do a number [00:33:00] of things. If the goal is just technology demonstration, that's great.
They are also a means to train people. So training is a thing, we do it in my CSD. But it's been true now for about a decade that it's not unusual. for a student in a major university in the U. S. to be able to launch their senior project. I mean, that was not true back in the Middle Ages when I was in a university but that is true now.
So students studying aerospace at any number of our top universities in the country could be designing and building a CubeSat to demonstrate some important idea, or at least get trained on that. And that's a generation of students now that's in the workforce and continually changing the workforce.
The new hires that a lot of space companies get are probably students who have been involved in CubeSat projects. And so it's kind of a neat future that has really only been around since about the year 2000. And so that's that has changed the landscape and, and really the complexion of what people do when they go into a space, a space job.
Greg Ray: I don't wanna get ahead of ourselves. Jump in there. I mean, that's just really important [00:34:00] because It's somebody who's sitting on the commercial side, and I'm thinking about our talent acquisition in the workforce we're trying to grow. You know, we need, we need workforce ready people to be able to step onto the engineering floor on day one, and be able to Turn the bolts and do the schematics and manage the missions and there really is no better way to do that than the hands on type of experience that yeah, experience that they can develop in a lab building satellites and launching them, you know, it.
We move at a blistering pace in space and, um, we would love to have the the luxury of being able to train every, every, every person that joins the company on how to do their job. But the reality is everybody needs to be able to do 10 jobs, um, as quickly as possible. And, um, you know, coming out of a program like NYCST or another, another program at a university where they have access to this.
The same kind of [00:35:00] experiences is just really critical. I think small
Mason Peck: spacecraft level that playing field, right? So folks without the benefit of having worked for many, many years in the space industry can go through a training program, get exposed to things like small spacecraft, and actually be way ahead of the curve, way more employable by companies looking for that kind of expertise just to get in the door.
Right now there's a, there's a significant gap in being able to hire for space companies. So there is actually one of the gaps that NYCSD is trying to fill. I mean, we do some training we'll be doing more of it. But with that training, just, just, just a nudge, so a person is familiar with at least the vocabulary, but probably also some basic ideas in how to do technician level stuff for space we can really elevate the capabilities of the workforce here in, in the region, but also help fill the gap for those folks who are having a difficult time hiring space capable people.
Greg Ray: One more thing, and it's not just university level, right? We've got programs, NASA's [00:36:00] Space Grant program, but also NASA HUNCH program, which, um, I don't know if you know what HUNCH is, but essentially what it is, is, you know, in the ISS, the International Space Station, they might have a requirement to build handles so that the crew can grab a hold of and move around the habitats.
Um, we, NASA actually has the HUNCH program that will Um, equip high school students with the resources and the expertise and the training and the tools that they need to design and build these types of components. And we've got it through that program, a number of different technologies that have built by high school students that are currently flying on the space station.
So it's not limited to just. You know the higher education level, we've starting to create this ecosystem in our nation where even coming out of the high school, if you've been plugged into the right opportunity, you can step into the workforce.
Chris Wofford: The United States is gearing up for another small step or giant leap.
We're going back to the moon. The Chinese have been there recently. What business [00:37:00] do we have on the moon? There was some earlier mention of it. In addition to cislunar space, the space between Earth and the moon and right around the moon, what can we anticipate happening in
Mason Peck: that space? Well, there's so much going on.
One, one thing to say is that we are entering an era where the infrastructure for space, for exploration, for science, for commerce, for military purposes. That infrastructure is a focus of technology development. We could say, for example not just the launch vehicles, but also the ability to communicate.
You may remember that movie, The Martian, where an astronaut is, is Trapped on Mars and he cannot communicate back to Earth. That is not the future we anticipate. More likely Mark Watney, the character in the movie, would be able to whip out his cell phone and just make a call. In fact, Nokia has been contracted by NASA to build exactly that, kind of a LunaNet.
type of communication system where you'd be able to use cell phone style communications to contact anything anywhere. That network [00:38:00] approach, that infrastructure approach, is very different from the way we do communications right now for space. Because right now we have a couple of big antennas, we do artisanal communications, I use that word a lot.
Um, and that, um, that type of thing works great for the occasional billion dollar science mission. It is not a sustainable way to support. Thousands of spacecraft doing, you know, science or commercial activities in orbit. So, communications is just one example. Being able to refuel spacecraft is another.
And to refuel them, as we said earlier, we might be able to use the material on the moon, including the water. But it's more than that, too. We expect a human presence on the moon. And that's for exploration purposes. It's also because it's what we do as people. We explore. We go across that land bridge and find a new continent.
That's just the way we work.
Chris Wofford: Hey, I want to zone in on the communications component. Listener JD chimes in and says, It doesn't seem that low volume communications to remote areas or episodic imaging for resource survey or disaster, disaster recovery do not seem sufficient to sustain a large commercial space industry.
Am I [00:39:00] missing something? How will these companies make money?
Mason Peck: There are government users, commercial users, um, and maybe even a few others, right? Private users, you could call them. So, the government will continue to need Access to communications.
We see a proliferation of space assets, and those are for a wide variety of purposes. Whether that's Earth observation, we didn't even talk about that, but that is a money maker right now. Or for some other form of collecting information called intelligence, if you like. For a wide variety of military, intelligence, commercial other purposes.
All those spacecraft need infrastructure. And whether that's communications, or refueling, or maybe even repair parts. That is the the intermediate step or the kind of infrastructure related step that makes things possible. Let's take, take the example of automotive. Automobiles, right? So, in the late 19th century, there were very few gas stations.
Right? There's a whole lot more, because we have cars now. And auto repair shops [00:40:00] didn't exist. There are companies who make cup holders that you know, serve the automotive industry. All of those kind of ancillary or sort of second or third party products, that is what we're talking about here. It's all the economic activity that surrounds the core.
Functions of space. And again, those are things like space communications for commercial purposes, military for a wide variety of national security purposes, and also scientific. And although science was the driver for a number of decades, it is now not diminishing on its own, but in relative importance, it is somewhat diminished compared to what it was once.
And we're seeing much more energy toward the commercial and the military. So those are the folks that are going to be demanding all of this infrastructure, including communication services.
Greg Ray: Yeah, yeah. The only thing I would add to that is, you know, as, as the the person asked the question, how do we make money?
Well, we also make money with services. Right. Just like here on earth, in order to communicate, you have to have a cell phone plan or you have to, you know, have to have a subscription to your G drive or things like that. Um, you're going to [00:41:00] need that in space. And the further and further we get away from the planet, um, we need to be able to do communications and data processing at the point of use.
So, there are technologies that are coming online that utilize edge computing resources, um, that are building, um, orbiting cloud data centers that are utilizing artificial intelligence, normorphic processing to be able to, um, really provide the services that are going to be necessary for the the consumer consumer.
Who is in space to be able to do their science, to be able to do their manufacturing, to, you know, to live, to work, all those types of things. So, um, The service industry, um, is going to be huge for, for companies that, um, can move into that space. So
Mason Peck: lowering the cost of access to space means more customers for space, more customers for those companies providing the services or the infrastructure materials, whatever it might be.
So I think what we're seeing is the, there's a strong correlation, causal [00:42:00] correlation between the reduction in price of getting to orbit and the use of space. And that's, that's the, the kind of wave we're all on right now. Unless something surprising happens that prevents that, I don't see that trend changing for a long time.
Chris Wofford: What are some of the biggest innovations in your estimation? What are things that you're excited about, that you're most jazzed about, that inspire the visionary?
within all of us.
Mason Peck: Greg is looking at me. Okay. I just saw you get all excited. So we have 15 hours, did you say? Yeah, we're doing 15. Well look, there's so much that's possible in space and things we haven't even tapped as possibilities. So there's enabling technology where there's a specific need, sort of a pull, you could call it, and then there's other things that no one says they need yet, but it's technology that could push us toward doing something innovative.
On the need side there are very exciting science missions that are on the horizon and we're just barely capable of doing them. One of the most exciting, in my opinion, is exploring these so called ocean worlds. So [00:43:00] these are the moons of gas giants, places like Enceladus Titan, um Europa.
Examples like that, where there are water oceans in space. Probably more likely, I'm not a space scientist, but probably more likely to, to harbor life than Mars is. Now we've spent a lot of effort looking for life on Mars. We've found some fantastic things and there's been some important discoveries. But if you're really looking for life, you might go where there's some warm water.
And that's actually in these ocean worlds. But it's very expensive to get there. And we don't really have a lot of means to explore there. But there are possibilities, including very small spacecraft that actually could do that. From a power system perspective, that's you. You mentioned to me about nuclear power.
That is another option. There are technologies that have been used in medical devices for years. Here, they're called beta voltaic, or tritium batteries. They provide continuous nuclear power, but they have such a small amount of material that the regulatory hurdles are basically absent. And that's exciting too, because we could actually see a huge rise in exploration of parts of the solar system we've never seen [00:44:00] before.
The dark lava tunnels on the moon, or the permanently shadowed regions on the moon, where uh, water ice might exist and where we might have people someday. I'm excited about the possibilities of exploring places we haven't explored before, and those are just on the horizon thanks to this. Um, and I could keep going, but I'm not going to.
What do you got? You're,
Greg Ray: you're a visionary. I, I'm much more of a pragmatist, so, you know, a guy that grew up watching the space shuttle and then kind of seeing the exponential growth in the space industry over the last 20 years. You know, I, I read the headlines and I get excited about it, but then my brain always goes to, well, how are we actually going to do that?
So he meant, he mentioned beta voltaics. I mean, that's a. That's a really exciting technology. We're going to be able to have power on the dark side of the moon. You know, that's a, we'll be able to use these things to, to, to heat. Um, you know, that, that's a big problem. Um, AI, how we integrate, um AI machine learning into our autonomous manufacturing capabilities.
So. There's companies out there like Getai. They've got these [00:45:00] robots that can crawl around on a space station or a satellite and they can repair things. Um, that's a really exciting technology. I totally geek out on the edge computing thing, but I'm very serious about it. you know, if you want to do science or you want to do in space manufacturing or, autonomous maneuvering, you have to have a computer that can think for itself at the point of data collection and, and we're just getting to the point of having, you know, the.
the hardware that's small enough, light enough, but also powerful enough to be able to enable those things.
Mason Peck: It's going to be essential when we have multiple spacecraft all having the same space, right? So right now, that's actually one of the areas where NYCST is focused. We're building an extremely large, full scale spacecraft simulator where two spacecraft can move relative to each other and allow collaborators and others to evaluate how.
Two spacecraft can work together. Once you can make two work together, you can make 10, 000 work together. So that is also a path to the future here, where it's not any longer about the [00:46:00] single Conestoga wagon that you load up and you drive across the country. That's not the way that we do space anymore.
Space is much more a kind of infrastructure based, community based set up where we all kind of depend on a bunch of other capabilities. And that first step of understanding how two spacecraft mechanically and electrically can work together is part of that. So I'm excited about technologies that will actually let that happen.
And there are companies even in New York working on exactly those technologies.
Chris Wofford: I want to ask you about the grand challenges that the industry faces and the work that you want to do to meet some of those grand challenges. I'm thinking about education. How does the NYCST think about this?
what are the things you want to tackle in the near and long term?
Mason Peck: I think we have three, key pillars to what we're trying to achieve. One of them we've already touched on, that's workforce development. We know that there's a few very surgical things that we could do to elevate a number of folks who are currently underemployed or not even in the workforce and make them able to contribute to this exciting area.
Chris Wofford: What are those?
Mason Peck: They are skill sets that include just the basics of how do you [00:47:00] manufacture things for space. Careful things you do to be sure that when you assemble a spacecraft, you're using the right materials, the right techniques. They're a little different from the everyday stuff. Testing things so what is necessary to test a thing to make it suitable for space and the different techniques involved, and also the care you have to have in assembling things for space.
Simple things like wearing a wrist strap so that the electrostatic discharge from your clothing doesn't zap. The hardware. These are things that do come up in other disciplines, but it's essential for space. So this kind of training is one of those, um, the other two pillars uh, the other is business assistance.
And I'll invite Greg to talk about that in a second. And the third is, of course, this shared set of facilities and capabilities so that when we build a facility like the Space Domain Awareness Simulator I was talking about, the two spacecraft, we can bring in a whole bunch of collaborators and jointly solve problems together of the type that we couldn't all solve individually.
But tell us more about the business assistance thing, because that's, I think, something you've got a particular take on.
Greg Ray: Yeah, you know, um, I go back to the, [00:48:00] the startups we talked about. Um, you know, they're trying to get things off the ground, quite literally. They want to build a technology, they want to launch into space, see if it works.
Um, that's a tremendous risk for a company that has very little operating capital. Um, so before they get to the, to the stage of, of being able to entertain potential investors, a lot of times they have to be able to show the, you know, the shark tank that, that the idea that they have is actually a little bit viable.
And I think that's where, um, some of this business assistance can come in. Um, you know, with the NYCST, we have a, a, a, a large funding pool, um, that's, that's set aside, um, for, for small businesses or for maybe businesses aren't. Or small, but are looking at a particular innovation, they can come to NYCSD, they can make application for that money.
Um, and then they can utilize that over a period of six to eight months to really solve one particular problem, um, that they are trying to de risk. So it's, it's all about buying down risk a lot of times to [00:49:00] get one of these products to market. So, um, you know, how many, we started last year. I think we've made seven awards to local companies.
We're about to do it again in May. We're going to have a symposium. Um, you know, and it really, we're seeing that this is really an innovative way to bring companies together to work on shared problems, but also to have a resource necessary to solve a specific problem that for them, hopefully will lead to some commercial gain.
Chris Wofford: The NYCST is running a symposium on May 9th. Um, Who is it for? What's going to take place? What are the desired outcomes for you two?
Mason Peck: There's a couple of things that are going to be happening there. One of them is, for the general public, you will learn more about space activity going on in the state of New York.
So innovations products, companies where maybe you can even get a job. There's lots of reasons that the general public might be interested in that. But for companies in particular, and our member our affiliated organizations, our consortium members, that [00:50:00] will be the place where we have a Shark Tank like pitch session for choosing the next round of funded projects, which is going to be super exciting.
I'm looking forward to that. Another is we'll have some, I think, fairly compelling talks and presentations and panel discussions around the kinds of topics we're talking about here. So, what are the innovations that the region, at least, maybe the nation, needs to realize that promised future in space?
So, a mixture of things for everybody, right? So, something for the businesses who feel like they want to actually get engaged with MICST, and also the general public who want to engage with those businesses in some way or another. What else would you say is going to happen of interest?
Greg Ray: I just think it's exciting for New York in general.
Um you can probably tell I'm not a native New Yorker, but I'm super excited to be here. And when you look back over the legacy that New York has had in space, you know, we built one of, we built the Lunar Lander. Um, we built Glass down at Corning for the, for the, um Space Shuttle. Um, we've had numerous astronauts and [00:51:00] other technologies come out of the state.
And now we are coming back to a point of where companies are wanting to invest. So, Um, we had a symposium last year. We were blown away by the by the outpouring of support that we got and the people that showed up, we had a really small room because we didn't think anybody would come and then it was just packed.
So, um, I'm excited to see what will happen this year. And really, I think for me, um, it's fun to see the momentum building for space in our state.
Mason Peck: So May 9th, and you can check out the NYCSD website, which is easily Googleable. And you'll be able to learn more about that.
Chris Wofford: Good. We're going to also share the link for membership, right?
And information on the New York Consortium for Space Technologies. May 9th event that's going to be happening, the symposium on Cornell's Ithaca campus. All are welcome. Mason Peck, Greg Ray, good to have you in the studio today. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for listening to Cornell Keynotes. Check out the episode notes for info on NYCST's Symposium for Space Technology, Innovation, and [00:52:00] Development, again, which is taking place here in Ithaca, New York.
On may 8th and may 9th of this year. I want to thank you for listening friends and please subscribe to stay in touch